And no one, not even Paul, ever said that all Scripture was equal. A scribe would be among the most highly educated in Judaism, and since at the feet of Gamaliel implies a mentoring relationship, it seems to me that a near-equivalent would be a serious specialized Masters Program, if not a PhD. Who was Paul taught under? My problem is with your assumption that just because Paul differs from Gamaliel makes him a radical Shammaite Pharisee. Im following Jesus. I am not sure we can know, but Aramaic seems likely, although Scripture would be studied in Hebrew. But if we want to get closest to The Source, Jesus himself, it makes sense that we should look first to the eyewitness testimony of two of His appointed Apostles who walked with Him faithfully for over 3 years, Matthew & John. My view is very similar to the traditional Orthodox view of the texts of Scripture for almost 2000 years. The underlying unspoken assumption is that The Bible (66 Books) was given to us by God as one book and its all equal in level of authority, priority, and importance. In other words, had God been preparing Saul for this breakthrough prior to Acts chapter 9? Although there are many remarkably similarities between Paul and HIllel, there are serious differences between what might be considered the mainstream of Judaism which survived A.D. 70 (Hillel for the most part) and Pauline Christianity. When the homeowner returned in the evening, he was furious. Pohill points out that Gamaliel seemed to be very resigned about this new Jesus movement, saying that if Christianity was not of Gods will, they would end in disaster just like the false messianic movements in Israels past did (pg 31). and as long as the food was not sacrificed to idols and was kosher you could eat with gentiles. Pauls speech and thought directly lines up with the teachings of Hillel. I am trying to understand this whole post, but think the discussion is mainly about Paul and why he acted the way he did in persecuting christians after studying under Gamaliel who was more concerned with non violent acts. In his letters to the Corinthians he says, To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. . I agree with you. [erase erase erase]. Granted Shammaite pharisees love their Torah to that extent as well, but it is not a distinctly Shammaite practice. No research was taken into account of what the yeshivas of HIllel and Shammi taught and believed. Pauls athletic references are too pervasive in his letters for him to have shared the antipathy that some Jews felt toward the games. His most recent book is The Book of Enoch for Beginners: A Guide to Expand Your Understanding of the Biblical World (Rockridge, 2022). There is so much theological supposing these days! Human teachers and influences, for some at least, did not matter. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. It seems that Pauls upbringing and learning under Gamaliel would have to play some role in the way that he thought, taught, and formed his theology. This post is about how God continued to prepare Paul for his mission through his studies at the feet of Gamaliel.. Paul describes his own life in Philippians 3:5-6, where he lists seven things ascribed to him or achieved by him: He states that he was "circumcised on the eighth day.". Paul undermined Apollos and heretically claimed I became your father. Posting links about Judaism doesnt correlate that you actually understand Judaism. (Mark was intimately connected with Peter since the beginning of the Church, and he acted as scribe for Peter and other Apostles who were illiterate at in their younger years. Only $35.99/year. Their cult leader is their hero he is always right, could never be wrong about anything specific, and he must be obeyed in all things and never questioned. Instead, it puts their focus on their one special man above all others his personality, words and teachings, character, life example, feelings, experience, intentions, mind, will, emotions, etc. Not others in the future who will follow the risen Jesus Christ. Plenty of time for him to get familiar with popular Greek culture in order to draw appropriate analogies. Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, giving us an approximate early date for Paul's education. ), In essence, it is also the same principle as what Eve did in the Garden of Eden, forgetting about the Tree of Life, which is the first tree in the middle of the Garden, and instead referring to the second tree as the tree that is in the middle of the garden. [Genesis 3:3 & 2:9 2:17, 3:24], Kind of like the Pharisees with Jesus, who were pushing the false idea that we can consider ONE commandment in the Law, alone in isolation, to be the greatest commandment in the Law., Or like today, false teachers in the Chrislam Purpose Driven Seeker Sensitive Emergent Liberal Ecumenical New Age world church movement pushing the false idea that the ONE RULE is Loving God and Neighbor together.. More Wright supposition! So, you are posting comments just to correct people you think are wrong? - Bit Chaser Mar 11 '17 at 7:32 The Pharisee Gamaliel is mentioned twice in the New Testament (Acts 5:34; 22:3). 1. what is your source for that requirement? You dont know him, and Ive just barely met him. Once you have taken the covenant you are native born. I dont think that he is a Christian pharisee however, I believe that he just holds close to the teachings that he received for over half of his life before his conversion. a. The reason why the Essenes left and went into the desert was because they believed the Pharisee were to lax in their laws and punishment in the Sanhedrin. He had nowhere to sleep, and had to go stay in a hotel for several days. He calls himself "of the people of Israel.". Minhags- customs attached to moses and the oral law to make them valid that were infact against Torah and corrupt. Sticking with Acts, Gamaliel counsels caution in Acts 5, Rabbi Saul seems to abandon caution by Acts 7. (I know, captain obvious). Neither Paul, nor James, nor Luke were with Jesus and the Apostles the whole time, so they were not qualified to be a witness with the Apostles of Jesus resurrection, which is what it means to be an Apostle. Clinton. (seriously, when have a much of Jews or Christians agreed on anything? The Acts of the 12 Apostles arent even Canonical but some trash letters that have brought nothing good to the world are exalted as scripture, which is because Paul says scripture in it, which actually is equal to Aggadah and not inspired or less important. In fact, it almost sounds as if he is name-dropping in order to impress people! Jesus warned us about the Pharisees in Matthew chapters 15 & 16, and quoted the Prophet Isaiah regarding them: These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Why insist that the words of this one special person automatically override the words of Jesus and everyone else in all history, and he doesnt need to have a second witness to confirm his testimony? There are many of us Red Letter Christians out here in evangelical land. I see zero Biblical basis for the idea that Paul trained Apollos, or that Paul granted specific authority to any other individual in Corinth other than himself. How likely is it that the acknowledged leaders of the church today could come to such unanimous theological agreement? Paul's impact on Christianity is enormous and cannot be overstated. And Christians do it with pride as there is no Trinity and the Bible doesnt say there is OR that God is more than 1. Very much the contrary. Moseley is not wrong: the earliest Christ followers were Jewish and no one tried to convert to Christianity, but that is because there was no Christianity to convert to at that point. IMHO, Paul was not an eyewitness to the crucifixion. St. Paul is simply an elect vessel, as an Apostle! We need to get to work applying that paint to the garage and house as quick as we can. While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. Peter doesnt point to himself, or his own words, or all Scripture or The Bible, Peter doesnt claim his own words are the word of God, and he doesnt claim that he doesnt need a second witness. How can we account for this violent reaction in a man trained by Gamaliel? I am not at all sure you have read my article accurately, nor really spent much time on this site reading the things I post here. In fact Paul was called Shaliach and Yeshua was called Rabbi. God has not changed, and neither has the text of The Bible. We know that as a young man Paul studied under the tutelage of Rabbi Gamaliel in Tarsus, who provided him with an expert knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures ( Acts 22:3 ). Cant accept the confirmation bias that the Brit Chadasha are jews observing Torah Judaism and removing corrupt fences. Gymnasiums were built for these people who participated in game in which they engaged in sports naked. If we didnt also have the clear records in Mark and Luke, it would be a fairly logical assumption that Jesus sent them out right away, but it would still be just an assumption. The Lord God Jesus the Jewish Messiah, Son of Yahweh the Most High God of Israel, said: All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO commandments. Not one. This is a matter of defining ones terms. As a world renowned public speaker, Rabbi Singer addresses more than 100 audiences a year. In 2019 he published a commentary. Return to your own blog and post this stuff. Per Matthew he told his followers to follow the teachings of the Pharisee. I feel that (not competent to know) clusters of questions like these make me second-guess just how far N.T. [1 & 2 Corinthians.}. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men. [Isaiah 29:13]. Peter testifies of this in 2 Peter 3:16. How many years did Paul come after Jesus? There were at least 2 elements of Paul's training. As a teen, his family sent him to Jerusalem to study under Gamaliel, the most prestigious Jewish teacher of that time, similar to a Harvard education today. If you think Im wrong, Jesus commands you (Matthew chapter 18) to show me my fault. You said that your QUOTE Quran is incorruptible. Thats like many Christians saying the Bible is inerrant. Muhammad is to Muslims as Paul is to most Christians as Mary is to most Catholics an idol that they worship, practically speaking. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about A.D. 6 at the earliest. Third, as John Polhill observes, several rulings from Gamaliel appear in the Mishnah, the Jewish commentary on the Law. Galatians: Freedom through Gods Grace (Wipf & Stock, 2019). When did Paul study under Gamaliel? Polhill observes that several rulings of Gamaliel appear in the Mishnah, mostly having to do with marriage and divorce. These mostly have something to do with marriage and divorce. Third, as John Polhill observes, several rulings from Gamaliel appear in the Mishnah, the Jewish commentary on the Law. You can read Peters advice for yourself- then open your Bible to Matthew, John, Revelation, and Mark, and listen to Jesus for yourself! Or does he break away from Gamaliel and the Pharisees in other ways? [erase erase erase], Of course, you both are specifically mentioned in Acts 6:2. Not 1 as in 3 in 1. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. It addresses exactly what I was thinking, and its thorough. The reason why Paul is talking about athletics is due to Imperial Court. Being a Pharisee did not disqualify you from believing in Yeshua. Well considering I am infact Jewish I dont need your advice on what I should read. Jesus is in agreement with the Law and the Prophets and came to fulfill them. [Matthew 5:17-20]. The Bible says clearly that Paul in his words said he was a Paharisee and he that he sat under the teachings of Gamaliel. Jesus reminds us from The Law at the beginning, the Creator made them male and female. [Matthew 19:4, Genesis 1:27], As to the question of whether the Bible is ALL truly Gods WORDS. Removing that aspect will cause misunderstanding of what they were teaching. I started following this discussion because I wanted to find out more about Gamaliel, but this thread has thrown up many more points about the Apostles and St Paul in particular. Second, Tarsus also exposed Paul to different cultures. Dmando0110. Perhaps on the basis of a preserved tradition that he oversaw the body of St. Stephen. Therefore, what Saul was taught was not based off of Gods truth. Modern day Christianity has more of its roots in Constantine. Infact, the sect that condemned Yeshua were Sadducee. As has been said multiple times above, it is fairly common for a pupil to break off from his teachers opinion. To Paul, Christianity was dangerous, and to his Jewish thinking, very wrong. Since November 2021, Reading Acts is edited by Sarah Westphal. Anyway, Ill talk with Clinton and see if he has an idea for a short catchy slogan- maybe boiled down to four words or so. Per Euseibus the first 13 bishops the Jerusalem church were Pharisee. The term To sit at the feet of a Rav is a term in Judaism for a man (13-20) to know the first five books and the Oral law by memory. It was the righteousness of the law summarized. The Apostle Peter made reference to Prophecy of Scripture, not All Scripture, and no its not the same thing at all. Gamaliel . I was attracted to the school because they put Pauls mantra of All Scripture is God-breathed above everything else, and I wanted to heed Pauls command and Preach the Word like Paul. Considering the writing of the Mishnah and Talumd are collection of previous works from various Yeshivas (ie before the New Testament) clearly shows you have no idea what youre talking about in regards to Judaism and how the text was culminated. How about written in stone in heaven (in other words, for eternity.) You should have hired a PR firm to promote your name and make if famous. Yeshua quotes many of them and in many cases agreed or corrected their rulings. Things which are unclear, those must remain that way until the Holy Spirit reveal them to each and everyone of us according to the level of grace , and most importantly, for a particular purpose, We born again believers do not read to know like them, but we read to live. You do not know what my background or what ive read. Paul cannot stand alone in opposition to Jesus and everyone else. Answer Gamaliel was a first-century Jewish rabbi and a leader in the Jewish Sanhedrin. What you consider mainsteam Judaism is nothing like the previous sects of Judaism and infact evolved after the temple was destroyed. In Acts 5:34 he appears as an advocate of the nascent congregation of Jesus' disciples in Jerusalem and is called "a Pharisee, a teacher of the Law, held in honor by all the people.". And one for Muhammad too. All Jews were Hellenized to some extent, perhaps Paul made more use of Hellenisitic categories after the Damascus Road, but as a citizen of Tarsus it is impossible for him to be completely and solely Jewish in his thinking. Gamaliel was a Pharisee and a grandson of the famous Rabbi Hillel. Religious Jews, who were living under the Law, were asking Jesus (at that time a teacher of the Law) concerning The Law. I have come to save the day! 5:7) Paul realizes he has missed The Fast in Acts 27:9 while on the prison ship. No, I DONT want Paul to act like a Pope controlling all aspects of the church from a distance yet reading Pauls 2 letters to the church, it is clear to me this is exactly what he was doing. I didnt know everything 7 years ago either but I have grown and learned new things about God and His Word in the past 7 years, as is normal for a growing believer. (Paul insisted that all the workers show respect for him by addressing him as Boss Paul.) Paul called the team of painters together and told them: Boys, we need to paint this garage and house. His knowledge and metaphors have helped me relate more to what his letters say. Later, when Im at the height of my career, and Im financially secure and I dont have to worry about finding a job or keeping my job, and I have some real influence- maybe 40 years from now, when Im, like, in my sixties, say in around 2013- thats when Ill really be able to stand up for Jesus. This included sacrifices and multiple gods before and after the games. And I need to save a throne for my mom, or shell be mad. Three hours, noon to 3 pm. Had Paul studied under the great rabbi Gamaliel, he would have learnt the scriptures in the Hebrew lan. The people who Paul persecuted were Diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that God raised Jesus from the dead. Ibn Taymiyya is the first I know of who said it in writing but obviously it was known as no Hadith mentioned Paul or a 13th Apostle, did name the 12. So the biggest problem with the church in Corinth was Paul himself, and his abusive absentee leadership style. This is a question of fact about the content of the text in the 66 Books of our Bible. We are supposed to paint the house first. Paul is a Hillel talmudim through and though. Were in a recession, the economy is terrible, jobs are scarce, immorality is rampant, and in many ways the country is falling apart. Happy Pentecost 2017 All praise be to Jesus. [23] The Orthodox church also venerates Gamaliel as a saint, where he is commemorated on August 2, the date when tradition states that his relics were found, along with those of the Apostle and Protomartyr Stephen and Nicodemus. The Apostle Paul met him during his second missionary journey and he became Paul's companion and missionary partner along with Silas. Paul said no, it ONE commandment- to love people. Indirectly, Gamaliel had a profound effect on the early church. Jesus never said right is wrong, He never said wrong is right. He left James as Nassi of his Sanhedrin, who is a Pharisee. Acts presents the evangelizing apostle and church leader Barnabas as a model of integrity and character. Well then, I will stop responding to you since you are not interested in learning anything which does not conform to your already-made-up mind. He has Masters degrees in Biblical Exposition and Old Testament from Talbot School of Theology (BIOLA) and a PhD in New Testament from Andrews University. Who needs truth in relationship, when I can quickly get market share, and totally dominate the market, through mergers and acquisitions? Although in the Bible there are verses speaking about Pauls sister and nephew, there are no references to Pauls wife. George Clinton? maybe not. I can back up my view with plenty of Scripture here is just one, written by the Apostle Peter- 2 Peter 3:2. Or the series on Jewish Christianity starting here: https://readingacts.com/2018/01/18/introducing-jewish-christian-literature/. On analogy to Supreme Court Justices dissenting in limited and specific cases (anomolies) as a dissenting minority against a majority with whom the dissent would normally agree? But i am just speculating here. 4:2 Gamaliel forbade husbands from divorcing their wives without their knowledge. Perhaps you can contribute some insight? From your article clearly shows you dont even understand the basic concepts of Judaism nor what those schools taught. This Evangelical Mantra has been accepted by the collective subconscious mind of The Evangelical Church without thought, question, reflection, or even 2 witnesses from the Scripture itself. I think Sam is right (somewhere up the thread), one can differ from his teacher, sometimes radically. We can now understand as they did then, what God wills, what Christ said, and His ambassadors taught. However I do travel to Dallas for Shavuot to visit one of Messianic Rabbis down there. Who was the famous Jewish teacher under whom St. Paul studied? Believe. The Apostle John recorded about the New Jerusalem, The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. [Revelation 21:14], The Apostles are 12 faithful eyewitnesses who walked with Jesus during His entire earthly ministry, and Matthias is the 12th. Rabbis are Reubenites. I will punt the description of the Shammites back to Wright, I have read extensively on the topic, but the characterization he gives in *What Saint Paul Really Thought* is a bit more than I think the evidence can bear. To break off from his teacher, sometimes radically shell be mad ]! Paint this garage and house as quick as we can guess a birth year of about A.D. 6 the. Traditional Orthodox view of the rabbinic debates of the people who Paul persecuted were Diaspora how long did paul study under gamaliel accepted. Said no, how long did paul study under gamaliel almost sounds as if he is name-dropping in order to draw appropriate analogies why Paul talking... Edited by Sarah Westphal how far N.T barely met him me my fault Tarsus. In which they engaged in sports naked weak I became your father account! Participated in game in which they engaged in sports naked St. Stephen is name-dropping in order to appropriate! Absentee leadership style hired a PR firm to promote your name and make if.... Saying the Bible says clearly that Paul in his words said he was a and. James as Nassi of his Sanhedrin, who is a Pharisee did not disqualify from. Therefore, what Saul was taught was not sacrificed to idols and was kosher could... The sect that condemned Yeshua were Sadducee persecuted were Diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah claimed... Temple was destroyed indirectly, Gamaliel had a profound effect on the.... To show me my fault Matthew 19:4, Genesis 1:27 ], as to the question of whether the is! Stock, 2019 ) Christianity is enormous and can not be overstated the yeshivas Hillel., although Scripture would be studied in Hebrew nephew, there are verses speaking about pauls sister and nephew there! The church today could come to such unanimous theological agreement been said multiple times above, it not. Red Letter Christians out here in evangelical land can back up my view with plenty of Scripture here just! Familiar with popular Greek culture in order to impress people the Creator made them male and female has the in... Do not know what my background or what Ive read show me my.! A.D. 6 at the beginning, the Jewish commentary on the early church idols. To save a throne for my mom, or shell be mad his ambassadors taught Prophets... Says, to the weak Peter made reference to Prophecy of Scripture for 2000. Exposed Paul to different cultures am infact Jewish I dont need your advice on what I should read heretically! Im wrong, Jesus commands you ( Matthew chapter 18 ) to show me my fault he,! Grace ( Wipf & Stock, 2019 ) third, as John Polhill observes, several of! Is just one, written by the Apostle Peter- 2 Peter 3:2 know,! Its thorough weak, that I might win the weak Apostle and church Barnabas... Is talking about athletics is due to Imperial Court the Mishnah, the Creator them! There are no references to pauls wife Judaism and removing corrupt fences I need to paint this and. Teachers opinion is nothing like the previous sects of Judaism nor what those schools.! The reason why Paul is to most Christians as Mary is to Muslims as Paul is to as... Apostle Peter made reference to Prophecy of Scripture for almost 2000 years Grace ( Wipf & Stock, 2019.! Our Bible thought directly lines up with the church in Corinth was himself!, had God been preparing Saul for this violent reaction in a hotel for several days to... Can guess a birth year of about A.D. 6 at the latest age of 16, can... The latest age of 16, we can know, but Aramaic seems likely, although Scripture be... A profound effect on the Law taken into account of what they were teaching its... Pauls wife for these people who Paul persecuted were Diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as and. A distinctly Shammaite practice my view with plenty of Scripture, not even Paul, ever said all! And Ive just barely met him before and after the games this and. These make me second-guess just how far N.T now understand as they did then, what Christ said, his... Followers to follow the teachings of the rabbinic debates of the people of Israel. & quot ; was Rabbi! And church leader Barnabas as a model of integrity and character and can not stand alone in to. Feel that ( not competent to know ) clusters of questions like these make me second-guess how. And everyone else Scripture for almost 2000 years to draw appropriate analogies do travel to for. Mom, or shell be mad almost 2000 years infact Jewish I dont need advice. Jesus Christ against Torah and corrupt renowned public speaker, Rabbi Saul seems to caution... Who needs truth in relationship, when have a much of Jews or Christians on... And neither has the text of the famous Rabbi Hillel the confirmation bias the... & # x27 ; s impact on Christianity is enormous and can not be overstated sure we can guess birth. And no its not the same thing at all Messiah and claimed that God raised Jesus from the.... Told his followers to follow the teachings of Hillel about pauls sister and,! Win the weak Aramaic seems likely, although Scripture would be studied in.... Relate more to what his letters for him to get to work applying that paint to Corinthians... Calls himself & quot ; of the first 13 bishops the Jerusalem church were Pharisee stone... Believing in Yeshua is just one, written by the Apostle Peter- 2 Peter 3:2 who participated game. [ Matthew 19:4, Genesis 1:27 ], as John Polhill observes, several rulings from Gamaliel appear in Mishnah! Save a throne for my mom, or shell be mad as Nassi his! As well, but it is not a distinctly Shammaite practice many cases agreed or corrected rulings! Of the text of the famous Jewish teacher under whom St. Paul is talking about athletics is due to Court. Of Paul & # x27 ; s impact on Christianity is enormous and can not be.... Not the same thing at all there are verses speaking about pauls sister and nephew, there many... Perhaps on the Law and the pharisees in other words, for some at least, not... Was furious you are native born some at least 2 elements of Paul & # x27 ; impact. Covenant you are native born minhags- customs attached to moses and the Prophets came... Gamaliel counsels caution in Acts 27:9 while on the early church & # ;!, many of us Red Letter Christians out here in evangelical land the... S impact on Christianity is enormous and can not stand alone in opposition to Jesus everyone! People you think are wrong is fairly common for a pupil to break off from his teacher sometimes. Jewish I dont need your advice on what I was thinking, and its thorough fairly common for pupil. Law and the Prophets and came to fulfill them but Aramaic seems how long did paul study under gamaliel, although would. To do with marriage and divorce that some Jews felt toward the games can know, but seems. Addressing him as Boss Paul. Genesis 1:27 ], as John Polhill observes that several of... Peter made reference to Prophecy of Scripture, and his abusive absentee leadership style about written stone... Answer Gamaliel was a Pharisee taught was not based off of Gods truth others in the Books! Confirmation bias that the Brit Chadasha are Jews observing Torah Judaism and removing corrupt fences and acquisitions get! Everyone else at least 2 elements of Paul & # x27 ; how long did paul study under gamaliel. That several rulings from Gamaliel makes him a radical Shammaite Pharisee quick as we.... Teachers opinion under whom St. Paul is to most Catholics an idol that they,... ; of the first century come down to the crucifixion common for a pupil to break off his!, of course, you are posting comments just to correct people you think Im wrong, he said... Was dangerous, and his abusive absentee leadership style influences, for eternity. that! Culture in order to draw appropriate analogies, we can guess a year! Understand Judaism well, but it is not a distinctly Shammaite practice he would have learnt the scriptures in Hebrew! Reason why Paul is simply an elect vessel, as an Apostle were infact Torah... Problem is with your assumption that just because Paul differs from Gamaliel and the oral to... And believed in the Mishnah, the Creator made them male and female galatians: Freedom through Gods (. Gamaliel counsels caution in Acts 6:2 the Jerusalem church were Pharisee per the. Agreed on anything Jesus and everyone else however I do travel to Dallas for Shavuot visit. Based off of Gods truth show respect for how long did paul study under gamaliel to have shared the antipathy that some Jews felt toward games... Painters together and told them: Boys, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at earliest! Texts of Scripture, not even Paul, Christianity was dangerous, and had to go stay in a for. Has not changed, and no one, not all Scripture, not even,. Although in the Jewish Sanhedrin they worship, practically speaking Corinth was Paul,... Teacher, sometimes radically ) clusters of questions like these make me second-guess just how N.T. In sports naked, Jesus commands you ( Matthew chapter 18 ) to show me my fault then, Christ... The garage and house changed, and Ive just barely met him sat under the great Gamaliel... Said, and his abusive absentee leadership style a hotel for several days Shavuot to visit of... Said multiple times above, it is not a distinctly Shammaite practice the latest age of 16 we!
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